The first trip in a Quetico 17 doesn't need to be THIS exciting but what the heck! This is
Marty's whiteknuckle ride.  



Joe and Jackie,
I thought I'd tell you about our inaugural 'serious' trip in the canoe
and then end with a question I hope you'll be kind enough to answer.
 
I bought the Quetico 17 about 3 weeks ago from you. Since then I've made
atrip in a local reservoir, but was really interested in seeing how it
performed on Lake Erie. Near Cleveland we have a few rivers, a few minor lakes that are really
reservoirs and no place to portage shy of a 9 hour drive north to the
nearest Provincial Parks. But Lake Erie is close at hand. 
 
I bought the canoe partly on your and others' comments about its sea
keeping qualities.
 
This past weekend my girlfriend Edie and I took it from the mainland to
the Lake Erie Islands some 5-6 miles away. We actually made two round
trips to the islands on two successive days, the first on Saturday  with an
'advanced-novice' kayaker, following in her sea kayak. We had northwest
head winds and 3-4' waves, which were more than had been predicted. The
highest were over my eye level and blocked the horizon. I think that's
about 4'. They were coming from 100 miles away at the mouth of the
Detroit River where it enters Lake Erie. I was a bit nervous but tried not to let
on. Our kayaker friend was sure we knew what we were doing and said she'd
never have left the launch ramp without us in the lead. The blind leading
the blind.
 
Lake Erie, as you probably know, is much shallower than the other Great
Lakes, perhaps 20-25 feet deep in the islands area. That makes for steep,
choppy waves. 
 
During the whole trip we took about a dozen gallon slops off the tops of
the waves over the bow when a set of waves came unusually close together.
Edie, as bow paddler, was alarmed since it happened right in front of
her,literally in her lap. After about 1/2 hour and several more waves, the
water eventually came up to the tops of my toes, so I stopped paddling
for a minute or two and bailed it out. This happened several times during the
trip. Edie had never seen stuff like this and looked back nervously at me
each time. I just smiled and nodded with false confidence. I'd been out
many times on Lake Erie in my rowboat, but was uncertain of the canoe's
abilities. Turns out it did just as well as the rowboat would have, and
we arrived quite nicely at the campground. 
 
Our sea kayaker friend's legs were cramped by this time, after some 2-1/2
hours paddling, so that upon exiting her kayak she simply fell into the
water and couldn't get up for a minute or two. Her legs just weren't
functioning after that long in her kayak. Small waves filled the cockpit
until we got it ashore and pumped it out. 
 
I remembered your comments about the confining nature of sea kayaks. We
weren't stiff or sore at all. Although she is a bit faster than us on
flatwater, the situation was reversed here in rougher conditions and we had
to slow down for her. So much for sea kayaks being faster than canoes. I
should mention that Edie and I are no more than 'advanced-novice' canoers
either.
 
At the island campsite next to ours were 2 tents and several waterproof
canoe bags too big to fit into sea kayaks. Could other canoers have been
out too?
 
While walking into the island village we spotted what appeared to be 3
seakayaks some distance away but paddling with canoe paddles, 7-8 strokes
per side. I couldn't imagine what these were. A thought came to me: Verlen
Kruger canoes?
 
Back at the campsite we met the three paddlers, with SeaWinds, the
advanced versions of Kruger's Monarch and Loon. I'm sure you're familiar with
those boats. At least two of the three were serious canoe racers, one on the
Olympic team at some time in the past, and another a current champion
canoe racer, all from Michigan. They looked it, their shoulders being a good 2"
wider than mine.
 
They showed me their boats and let me try one out. Nice boats. Lots of
cockpit room, stable, indestructible, with rudders. Not a bad choice for
people who don't have a regular partner to canoe with and have to paddle
singly.
 
For their part, they were amazed to see our open canoe, and were perhaps
as much impressed with us as we were with them. They are used to racing
canoes and wouldn't consider taking them out on the Lake. I remember you
mentioning that kind of problem on your website.
 
Sunday we paddled downwind in 2-3 foot waves to take our kayaker friend
back to the start and pick up a second kayaker friend, about as
experienced as the first, and his 11-year old daughter, who took center position in
the canoe. We took care not to broach. Edie was happy not to see water coming
in over the bow, while I quietly kept a death-grip on the paddle
determined to steer a straight course and not let a wave toss us sideways. I needn't
have worried. We took the stern seas just fine.
 
The winds had shifted so that on our return to the island they came
directly from our intended course, but instead of the island blocking the
waves as I had anticipated, we were far enough away that they seemed to
come around both sides of the island and produced very confused chop.
Despite the waves being no more than 3 feet this time, we took on about
as much water as the day before but easily bailed it out. The 11 year old is
a champion bailer by now. We just kept getting sloshed by waves from
different directions and I couldn't point the boat everywhere at once. My
friend in the kayak had never been out in anything like this but
apparently put his trust in us and after an initial shocked reaction, later whooped
and hollered every time a wave bounced him up or down. 
 
He's a bit of a sea kayak chauvinist, initially horribly disappointed we
bought a canoe instead of a sea kayak and tried to talk us out of it. He
was certain sea kayaks were more stable, drier and faster than canoes.
'Everyone's got a kayak, he'd tell us, 'no one buys canoes anymore'.
 
On our recommendation he later visited your place in early September
while on a brief trip to Minnesota with a friend and began to have a change of
heart. Our outing on Lake Erie completed that change. 
 
Despite a spray skirt he pumped some water from his kayak when we landed.
And although he could windmill his paddle to sprint ahead of us in
flatter water, that was useless in 3 foot waves and we again had to slow down for
him. Not to mention the lack of room for his daughter in the sea kayak.
He also had to stop several times on this 7-8 mile trip to wiggle his legs
and get circulation restored. I don't think I'll hear any more derogatory
remarks about canoes.
 
Up on the 350 foot monument to Perry's victory in Lake Erie we had what a
ranger called the best view of the year, seeing Detroit's Renaissance
Center, the Toledo skyline and even Cleveland's Society Bank building
with the naked eye. I didn't know you could see all that from the monument. We
were 60 miles away from Cleveland on the island. All of the Canadian
north shore was visible clear to Hudson's Bay. Almost.
 
My friend and his daughter took the ferry home with the kayak to save
time, while we could finally relax and enjoy 1-2 foot following waves and a
tailwind back. A delight.
 
Despite taking on a little water, the canoe did fine. We were never even
remotely close to a capsize nor swamping. The canoe cover we ordered from
Dan Cooke should arrive in a few weeks and that should take care of any
waves coming aboard in the future.
 
I told another more experienced canoe friend about this trip; he declines
to paddle in Lake Erie unless it's nearly calm. He has a Wenona Odyssey,
I think a version of a racing boat and confirmed what you said about it
being hard to turn. He talked of being on a Lake in the BWCA one time and
having to back down the lake in reverse until he could find a spit of land that
blocked the wind to let him turn. He was also certain his boat would have swamped in the conditions we were
in, plowing into the waves rather than riding over them.
 
So, a good deal of information on your web site got put to the test. I
finally practiced your suggestions about lifting and lowering the canoe.
Although we had no portages to speak of I did have to carry the canoe
some distance from/to the car and also from/to the campsite. It was nice to be
able to lift it with confidence instead of staggering around trying to
keep my balance.
 
We also practiced loading the canoe without it being on land and entering
and leaving it without it touching the ground. With the steep pebble
beaches on Lake Erie we couldn't quite manage it completely dry-footed
but it was certainly a lot easier than our clumsy efforts 2 months ago in
Quetico. We're both a bit embarassed by how badly we treated that rental
canoe in retrospect.
 
The only thing I found not quite right in your writeup was about the
final seating of the stern person entering the canoe. You mentioned that unless
you have long arms you have to let go of one of the gunwales in order to
turn around and sit down. I have short arms and I managed to hold both
gunwales, rotate and sit in the stern, still holding them with no
contortions at all. It was easy.
 
I'm looking forward to trying the canoe in a bit bigger waves, maybe 4-5
feet, but will probably await that canoe cover. I think it will handle
those conditions in Lake Erie just fine. Beyond that I think we'll head
for a local river instead.
 
As for my question. The experienced friend with the Wenonah I mentioned
above suggested that we should have kneeled in the canoe to gain more
stability. I remember reading somewhere, maybe on your web site, that
withthis design, kneeling didn't improve stability, but I may be mistaken
about it.
 
So: is it an advantage to kneel in the Quetico 17 in rougher conditions
to improve stability or is that unnecessary?
 
Thanks for taking the time to read this. And thanks very much for all the
good advice on your web site and for selling us such a fine canoe. I
don't know if you can imagine how proud we were to be in the company of Verlen
Kruger boats and gain the praise of these canoeists far better than
ourselves. They were truly amazed that any open canoe would be out in the
Lake that day.
 
Marty Cooperman
Edie Antl